Director Coralie Fargeat on 'The Substance' and gender parity: 'It's time for a real change!'

There hasn’t been anything quite like The Substance in 2024.

Since its Cannes debut earlier this year, where it won the Palme for Best Screenplay, the demented fairy tale by French writer-director Coralie Fargeat has captivated audiences worldwide.

Starring Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley, the gory parable about the fetishisation of bodies and youth – specifically how the ruthless Hollywood system discards female talent the second they’re deemed “past it” - has cemented Fargeat as one of cinema’s most promising and vital voices.

Not that she wasn’t on discerning film lovers' radar already. Her 2017 debut Revenge made quite the impression, in part because it was released several months after the #MeToo movement started. Mostly though, because it subverted the “male gaze” by focusing less on the violence done to the victim and flipped the usual misogynistic iconography into something fierce and engaged.

The Substance doubles down and employs both body horror and sly comedy to create a timeless and timely satire unlike any other. It skewers Hollywood’s sexism and widens its gaze to society as a whole, becoming a warped cautionary tale about the system pushing you to chase unrealistic standards and becoming your own worst enemy in the process. In our review, we called it a “spine-cleaving triumph”, a “Very Freaky Friday that will melt your face.”

We stand by it.

The film has recently been nominated for five Golden Globes, including Best Motion Picture, Best Director and Best Screenplay, and seven Critics’ Choice Awards, including Best Picture, Best Director and Best Actress.

There’s every chance that next year’s Oscars will follow suit - and we'll be cheering it on.

Euronews Culture had the pleasure of catching up with Coralie Fargeat at this year’s European Film Awards to discuss the power of genre cinema, gender parity within the industry and how urgent change needs to happen for female bodies to be celebrated on and off the big screen.

Euronews Culture: The Substance has sparked such a huge reaction ever since its Cannes debut and even online, trending with memes for example. It’s incredible to witness because of the way the film speaks so directly about sexism and ageism in the movie system. How has it been for you witnessing all of this from the inception to it taking on a life of its own?

Coralie Fargeat: It's been really amazing because I think every filmmaker wants their movie to be seen and to be loved. But I think for this one, especially with what it was about, with the very important message that I wanted to let out and, you know, do a real kick in the system, to spread it out there... It's been so incredible to see that it had reached people, that it had sparked so many conversations, that it had left an imprint on cultural life. It’s the best thing you can dream for your film. So it's been incredibly touching and moving for me.

With regards to creating that impact, do you think that genre cinema in particular is the best way to address society's ills?

For me, I think genre films are political films, and I think they're super strong weapons to spread some very important ideas out in the world. Because you can have at the same time a movie that is super entertaining, so that people will really want to go and see and enjoy the experience, but at the same time have something that's going to resonate with the cultural and social life. The criticism that I bring to the system is going to be infused and digested in a way that is not instant. Especially nowadays, everything is going so quick, so fast – things come and disappear.

For this film - for all my films,  but especially for this one - what I really wanted is that the movie stays with people, so they can embrace the ideas, the themes, and think about them in a deeper way. I think genre films allow this fun experience. They really are movies that can stay with you, ones that you want to rewatch. They're the ones you’re going to discuss with your friends, the ones that are going to have a very special place at the table. When I see everything that I’ve seen online, all the discussions really show that yes, genre films can change the world.

Demi Moore recently made some comments saying that the US is “built on Puritans, religious fanatics and criminals.” She also said that sexuality remains taboo and there's a lot of fear in America around the body. Could the same be said about Europe? And if so, is it important - now more than ever - to celebrate the body on screen?

Unfortunately, I think that what she said about the body is true all over the world, especially for women's bodies. The fact that now you see that Trump comes back and we are going to live the same story about the limitations, the fundamental rights that are threatened again... In 2024! This is just insane.

So, unfortunately, the story that is said in The Substance is true from the beginning of humanity. The relationship to women's bodies, how we want to hide it, how we want to comment on it, how we want to control it, how we want to dominate it, how we want to shape it according to some gazes... This is what the movie is about. 

We should let women do whatever they want with their bodies! They should be able to use it the way they want. Be sexy if they want to be. Choose not to be sexy if they don't want to be. Cover it, not cover it, do whatever the fuck they want! The fact that we are still so much commenting it, criticizing it, scrutinizing it, restricting it... It's the whole thing for me that we have to blow out.

We need a real change, because the story repeats itself again and again, and it's different people but same story. That's why I wanted the movie to be violent. I needed The Substance to be bloody, to be excessive, to have a real strong message that it's time for a change. For a real change. And the change cannot be delicate, it cannot be gentle, it cannot be small. It needs to be massive, it needs to be everywhere, and it needs to be now.

Talking about this massive change that needs to happen, there’s still this slow reckoning with the #MeToo movement. It's slow, it's progressive, and I remember you mentioning in Cannes that it wasn’t something that was going to happen overnight - that it was going to be brick by brick. People are saying it’s evolving in the right direction, but the misogynistic comments made by the director of Poland's Camerimage Film Festival was yet another example that there’s still a lot of resistance... It even led you to pull The Substance from being screened at the festival...

To be honest, I’m totally petrified about how slow all this goes, and how things are not changing at all to be very honest. It’s cosmetic changes for me so far. I hear sometimes “Oh, but doesn't the MeToo movement go too far?” We haven't started! When you look at the numbers of women being killed, being raped, being less paid... If you look at politics and the presidents all over the world, maybe on 300 countries, there are only 17 that are women. The numbers say it all and show how far we are from real change, real equality, and a respectful world for everyone.

That's why I pulled the film from Camerimage. If someone insults me, I'm now not shutting myself down. I respond, I take action, because I think that's what we need to do. I'm fed up with conversations, to be honest - I really want some actions. We should move, we should react, we should say ‘enough is enough’. With my leverage, everywhere and every time I can do something, I will do it. Because I think that's what the world needs now.

There was also this slightly troubling trend I witnessed that I wanted to ask you about. When I saw the film in Cannes, it was very much an electroshock. And it reminded me of 'Titane', in the sense that the press were constantly saying “Oh my God, there are people fainting and vomiting and leaving the theatre.” It was the same with your film. When I asked Julia Ducournau about it, we discussed how there could be a sexist double standard at play here. Because if it was a man behind the camera, then people would just go “Oh, this is a very violent film.” But because it’s a film made by a woman, suddenly there has to be this strange reaction to the film. What do you make of that?

To be honest, I don't really care about those comments. Because for me, the fact that  the movie creates some reaction is great! (Laughs) The movie's bold, it’s provocative, and I’m also super happy that people hate it. (Laughs) Everyone is welcome to the party! But what I would say is that the fact that we are still making separate male director / women director distinctions, it’s still because the numbers are still so very few. It means that we're not yet in a place where it's just not a subject of conversation.

I’m very pragmatic - I look at the figures, at the numbers, and it's still very, very low for female filmmakers. I think there is still this thing where we are spotted in some sort of singularity, which I hope won't be the case in a few years. Hopefully one day we won't even comment because there will be space for everyone. But it’s still very slow, I think.

With regards to this space for everyone, your film premiered in Cannes, and the top European trio of festivals – Berlin, Cannes and Venice – all signed a few years back a petition for gender parity: "50/50 by 2020". That date has been and gone, and statistically, parity has not yet been achieved. Berlin is doing better than the other two, but do you think that there need to be quotas imposed for meaningful change to come about?

I'm 100% in favour of quotas. I think that’s the right way to move, because when people say: “Oh, yes, but it's only the quality of the films that matter”, it's really being ignorant of the basic sociology of how the world works. Everyone doesn't have the same chances and all the influence and power dynamics lead to some being in the light and others staying in the shadows.

To me, if you are really looking for good films, you can find 50/50. But it's everything in terms of power dynamics, in terms of process, in terms of how the world still works that unfortunately doesn't lead to that in the natural way and which reproduces the existing system. A great way to help things change and rebalance is to force the system to put its eyes in places where it isn’t used to naturally. And if you're forced to put your eyes somewhere else, you can find great things there as well. We can’t wait a thousand years. So yes, I'm totally in favour of that.

Our time is limited, so I wanted to come back to The Substance... Because I’m not very cool at all, I recently forced people who hadn’t seen the film and who despair at having me for a friend, to watch The Substance in a themed triple-bill. So, we did Sunset Boulevard, followed by Mulholland Drive, followed by The Substance...

(Laughs) Oh my God! Amazing!

If you had to choose a triple-bill for your film to be in, what would it be? 

Amazing question! I love your triple-bill, but if I need to have one that’s not the same as yours, I would say... Fuck, yours is a very good one! Let me see... I would keep Mulholland Drive in the in the mix, because it's a very important film for me. Maybe I would put Requiem For A Dream... Ok, let's do something different from yours: I’d have Requiem For A Dream, The Thing by Carpenter, and The Substance.

Thank you for indulging me. Lastly, what’s next for you, and is it daunting to think about another project after the success of The Substance?

What's great is that the pressure for The Substance, the second feature, was massive for me. I don't think the pressure can be more than the one that I had for this second feature. This one is done, which is great, and now I just generally can't wait to get some time back to start writing again. I already know what I want to write next, and The Substance was a confirmation for me that I know what I like, I know how I love to express myself, and I know how I love to make things. It brought me so much confidence, empowerment and liberation. So, I know that the third one will be such a happy moment. It's always tough to make a film, but I feel in a good place and I can't wait to get back to work, to be honest!

Check out extracts from our interview with Coralie Fargeat in the video at the top of this article.